June 27, 2024
Read the conversation below
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Welcome to the True Sports Physical Therapy podcast. So excited to have Jon Moscot with us. Thanks for making some time, Johnny.
Jon Moscot: My pleasure. Excited to be here.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: It's always awesome to talk to elite level athletes, and obviously you reached the pinnacle of your previous profession, pitching in the big leagues for the Cincinnati Reds, and we'll dig into that. You are one of the better athletes that I know and I've had the pleasure of working with, more importantly though, you're the best teammate I have ever seen, and I think it just comes so naturally to you, and then I've watched you grow professionally since your time in the Olympics, and it's been clear that you know how to run, organize and integrate yourself into teams, so I want... What I wanna know from you is what makes a great teammate and how do you find a great teammate?
Jon Moscot: First off, that's one of the more flattering comments and introductions I've ever had, so thank you for that.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: You are welcome.
Jon Moscot: Yeah, I really appreciate that. It means a lot. I think with my injury history in my playing career, one of the things that it brought to light very quickly was that what you do on field is only part of the story that you tell and the legacy that you leave. It's the way that you make others feel around you, the way that you influence a club house by not only your performance, but your actions with your teammates, and I think that to be a good teammate, you need to be somebody that sets an example and lives their life and sets the expectation for not only those around you, but even those that are your peers and your superiors. That's something that is... It was always very important to me, and one of the ways that I... That I led... And I think that by leading by example and by putting the work in and being able to be somebody that people look up to, by the way that you act, and obviously all of the things that come associated with that...
Jon Moscot: You earn the respect of your teammates and you're able to genuinely pull for your guys and have them pull for you, so when I look for somebody who is a good teammate, I'm just looking for somebody that genuinely cares about the people around them and is not somebody who's going to be dead weight, for lack of a better word, somebody that's gonna really put the work in and do it because they love it, and because they want to win with the people around them.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: It's easy to be a good teammate and a good leader, when you're the best player in the club house, I saw you and got to work with you at the Olympics in 2021, in the 2020 Olympics, and you had... It's so heart breaking the manner in which you got injured, you fought so hard to come back from elbow issues undergoing a surgery a couple of months before the Olympics, coming back, getting on the mound and then blowing your UCL within the first inning I believe of the Olympics, but what strikes me, the reason it's so easy to make the intro I did of you is later down the Olympics, we're talking a week later, so you had essentially your Olympic dreams crushed by tearing your UCL on the mound in the first inning. There is a still a snapshot of you celebrating a home run during which you were not any longer on the active roster, and no one in that picture of celebration is happier and more energetic than you were in the dug out. And so how were you able to look past the fact that you're no longer actively participating in the outcome of those Olympic games, but still be such a leader when you weren't necessarily the leading producer on that club?
Jon Moscot: Yeah, so obviously, you nailed it, it was crushing for me. I put so much work and time and sweat, and money and tears into surgeries and physical therapy, and getting back on the field to have one last shot at it and to get it pulled out from underneath me, I could have done two different, different things it could have been a Debbie Downer, and then the guy that sits and mopes, and I think there was a defining moment for me when it happened, and I was alone in the club house, you actually may have been there with me and I just... I had shed some tears, and then I stood up and I was like, Alright, that's it, it's over, it's... Nothing I can do about it now, the only thing that I can do is continue to support my teammates and be some type of influence to this team, however I can... And I think when you're put in a position like that, when it's put up or shut up, and you need to dig down deep, whether it be emotionally or physically, those are the times that really test you, and it was something for me that I wasn't gonna let...
Jon Moscot: Beat me, I knew I had to be there for my teammates, and I knew that it was important for me to be resilient in the face of adversity, so that that was something people could look to.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: And they definitely looked to it. And you played such a major hand in any success that transpired in those Olympic games, so good on you. It really was an inspiration. Also, you were expecting your first child, your wife was home pregnant, you were away from her and still made the decision to stay and be a teammate, not just a teammate, a leader and a factor in the outcome of those games without picking up a ball. You taught me a ton during those Olympic games, what did you learn from the Olympic experience that you took to your professional life?
Jon Moscot: I think I took away from that that in order to be there first and foremost, you have to be the elite of the elite, and you need to put incredible amounts of work in and dedicate your life to something, and then I saw that with not only our team, but really outside of baseball, you see it with all the sports and for the Olympic athletes, and of course, my personal experience getting hurt dealing with all the things that were associated there, supporting the team and being a rock to some extent, was personal growth for me, but I had dealt with that for a long time in my life with injury, and so it was something that I had built up, it wasn't something that I had just pulled out of a hat there in the Olympics, I think taking to a professional setting. Some of the things that I learned as an athlete would be the dedication and the drive to be successful of... That it takes to be an elite athlete, and then dealing with failure and dealing with the inevitable pitfalls and downfalls that you're going to deal with in a daily basis at a given job, whether it be co-workers or...
Jon Moscot: Successes and failures in certain endeavors, there's always gonna be things that come along with it, and staying the course and being more steady is something I learned in my career, just with the highs and lows.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah. And man, there's so much to learn there, but it's an awesome segue because you make the big leagues in what? 2015... There about, right?
Jon Moscot: Yeah.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: 2015, and then you suffer a freak injury, so get into that freak injury for me, and don't spare any details around the rehab from that injury, and maybe what you wish would have been done following that injury.
Jon Moscot: Yeah, so 2015, I was making my third Major League start was... Flew through the minor leagues with the Cincinnati Reds and was feeling great.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: By the way, your numbers in the minors were electric, but... Okay. You get to the Majors.
Jon Moscot: Yeah.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Third start. What happens?
Jon Moscot: Third start feeling, like I said, feeling good. And it was a rainy day in Detroit, I made a kind of a bone-headed play, got it come back or hit to me, turned around to tag the runner out and then run down in between second and third base, ended up diving to go tag him when I should have given the ball up and because it was so wet and there was so much turface the ground, I didn't slide, I stuck, I scorpioned over my left shoulder and I broke my... The bone inside the joint, bony Bankart, tore the labral, I'm 100%. And needed to have a full labral repair, restructured my left shoulder missed the entire season, and that was really tough for me because it was my chance to make an impression on a Major League organization and being in a Major League rotation. And frankly, from that injury, the subsequent year of rehab, getting back in spring training, having residual effects from that injury, I think the one thing on my left shoulder that I would have done differently had I known, which is probably the biggest glaring slap in the face to...
Jon Moscot: The PT department, and even the surgeon that did my surgery was, I got frozen shoulder because we hammered strength so hard and we did so much strength stuff that I lost mobility in the left shoulder, and when I went to go pitch and get back on the mound, it flared up in a Major League game the following season, and that led to a change in mechanics, a breakdown there, and ultimately tearing my UCL on my right elbow, which unfortunately ended my career, so I never really got a chance to see how I could perform at the Major League level with any type of health, the first injury completely on me boneheaded play, but what happened after that kind of led me down a rabbit hole of what could have been.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah. Yeah, I'm sure. So you get the frozen shoulder in your left, you're a right-handed pitcher, and so you learned how much a joint that's not necessarily your dominant joint in the action that you need, how it can affect the entire movement sequence. You definitely learn that, right? What can PTs learn that they maybe could have done better, ATs Could have done better. When rehabbing that Jon Moscot story. Is it just, Hey, we should have done more motion?
Jon Moscot: I think it just was a combination of the injury and how severe the labral damage was and the urgency to get back by a certain date, with all of that done, I think the rehab itself was done very well, I think along the way, getting me back to throwing was perfect. I think once I was back to being healthy, there was a... Okay, it's done. And that also could 100% be on me for not continuing my protocols, but you put something in front of me and most athletes, they're gonna do it, it was just there was no process and plan segmented out for the... Okay, now you're healthy. Let's stay on this. And it bit me in the butt.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, yeah. Well, that's a great lesson there. What was it like rehabbing, let's say at the Major League level, you hurt your left shoulder, do you stay in Cincinnati, do you go to Florida? How often are you going in for therapy, how long are those sessions? Etcetera.
Jon Moscot: So I stayed in Cincinnati and I stayed there through the rest of the season, and then I went to Arizona at the end of the year in spring training and stayed there and worked under the rehabs and the professionals with the organization as we had our spring training facility in Arizona. But if you're in the major leagues, you get to work with the rehab staff at the stadium when teams are out of town, you'll go in and work with the PTs in the field, which is great. But again, you're on your own. I was 20, I was... At the time, I was 23 years old, I had nobody in town with me, and when the team would go out of town for 10 day road trips, it was just myself going through this initial, Hey, I can't even lift up my arm, I can't go to the bathroom, I can't sleep. It was a lot to go through by yourself in a new place without any support system, but the organization, they did well, they did good by me in that, they provided and gave me all the opportunity to get back.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay, so then you come all the way back, you blow your UCL, you stay in Cincinnati, they keep you on.
Jon Moscot: Stay in Cincinnati, they keep me on. And next, spring training, made the team out of Spring Training and come back as a starting pitcher in the rotation, and I was... I think it was my second or third start that year, got the frozen shoulder in a game pitching against the Mets, and we were at that point depleted as a staff, there was nobody, and it was like, Hey, can we shoot you up with Toradol to let you throw your next game, and this is in April, Toradol being obviously the anti-inflammatory at a high level. And as a young rookie, my response was like, I'll do whatever it takes to be on the field, which was probably not the right thing to do, and ultimately didn't bode well for what ended up happening a couple of games later, I end up feeling some pain in my elbow and there you go.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yep, there you go. Okay, so then you rehab the UCL and what happens?
Jon Moscot: Then the story gets interesting. Rehab here wasn't linear. There was a lot of... There's a lot of back story. I had some elbow injury when I was a sophomore, I had a little league elbow in 10th grade in high school. And from that, my elbow never had full range of motion, so the Reds were always a little bit concerned without the full range of motion, am I at a greater injury risk than somebody else... So I end up getting UCL damage that season in 2016 with the Major League team, and when I go to get surgery, the surgeon goes in, repairs the arm and then pulls out some of the floating bone that had basically calcified in the back of my elbow from my injury as a high schooler, when he had done that, it was being the anticipation that more range of motion, more mobility gives me more ability to throw healthy... Well, it turns out that I had such severe arthritis in the elbow because of that previous injury, that by removing that bone, every time I would go to throw, I would knock bone on bone with no cartilage in the joint to stop it, and I would essentially bone bruise and to some extent fracture my bone when I would go to fully extend upon, release at pitch on a mound.
Jon Moscot: So I didn't know this until, of course, I had gone through the rehab process and gotten back on the mound the following year after a full Tommy Jon, 12 14 months of rehab. I get back on the mound to throw my first bullpen, and I had fractured my elbow in the first bullpen, so that ended up happening three more times, basically go through a scope, have a surgery, try to remove bone, come back to the mound, fracture the arm, as you get on the mound... So my career was immediately ended, I couldn't throw after that, and that was basically the end of what could have been.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay, so along that line, you're going through obviously, when you get back on the mound, each time you go through a tremendous amount of coaching once you're done playing, you become a pitching coach. So what did you learn through that and what did you change in your approach to players once you flipped sides, so to say, and become a coach?
Jon Moscot: Yeah, so when I got done the organization was like, Hey look, the game is going towards data, you should learn as much as you can about data, and so I did spend as much time as I could understanding information, biomechanics, the ball tracking data. And that led me into more of a coaching role at the AAA level with the organization, and one of the things that stood out to me was how responsive to the information guys at that level were, guys that had more big league time that I did, were open to talking, chatting and understanding themselves, the way that they moved, what they could do better, how they could be more successful, and I think that gave me insight into the mind of others, I knew how I thought, but that fact that others are willing to consistently want to learn and be receptive to it, whether it was the way that I delivered it or just the fact that knowing information and providing it to others gives them a little bit... It takes their guard down a little bit more. So in that side, it led me to be a better coach, be a better potential teammate down the road if I had ever played again, which I did with you in Tokyo and of all those, all of those things.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay, yeah, I'm sure it's a very different mindset. Did you run up to any resistance, guys who may be made it to the bigs without that data. And now here's Jon Moscot giving them all this data. And they're like, Dude, I'm good.
Jon Moscot: There were some guys that weren't believers, I guess you could say, and kinda... You're not gonna influence them one way or another, but if you can present something in a way where it's like you don't have to do it, but it's something that could help. Here's what the underlying proof is, generally speaking, most guys are very receptive to it.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Do you remember your resources for becoming a data-driven coach? Like where were you getting that information?
Jon Moscot: Yeah, I went up to Driveline, spent about two weeks up there, I was working directly with one of the VPs of TrackMan, to understand their initial, I don't wanna say initial, but the beginning of them foraging into baseball and having stadium systems across the board. Working with the Rapsodo and Edgertronic slow motion cameras and kind of just throwing things against the wall to come up with what's the best strategy for the organization.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: And so you just a attacked that yourself. Were the Reds leading you along that? Were they like Hey, go to Driveline, go to Trackman.
Jon Moscot: The Reds were leading me along that they provided that opportunity to me and let me go and fill my shoes there.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. So you did a great job of answering my next question, which was how the hell did you get into this tech space? But eventually you fall into Blast motion and now at Uplift. So tell me a little bit about your time at Blast and tell everyone what the hell Uplift is.
Jon Moscot: Yeah, I'm excited to share it. So Blast Motion was a great transition for me outside of the professional space, being a part of a front office and an organization into the private sector where I was talking data and how to incorporate data and actually utilize information with organizations, teams, colleges and so on and so forth. And that was my role there. It started out where I was working as kind of a manager to make sure that people were having success with the information and so that they would continue to utilize the product. It morphed more into, as I naturally was positive in that role and did a good job into more of a sales role. And I ended up running the West coast and our international business at Blast for our sales team. And recently, as of the beginning of this year, transitioned to a new company, Uplift Labs.
Jon Moscot: And if you're not familiar with what Uplift Labs is, it's really interesting. It's markerless motion capture. So it is a two camera system currently where you can operate it off of a couple of iPhones or a couple of iPads. And the portability is one of the main selling points of the product that you can take this into a physical therapy setting, you can take it out onto a baseball field and you can get the biomechanical markers from joint occultation where our product reverse engineers back off of the joints to correlate in 3D model movement through space. And what that allows and gives essentially a clinic or a coach is details one around injury mitigation. Like is there forearm fly out throughout the delivery in a baseball pitching motion? But also with our movement assessments, which I believe are gonna be... And I believe not only... Not do I believe, but we believe it's sport agnostic, so you can go across sport to anything is that you are able to take a player and say, Hey, do a squat.
Jon Moscot: See the knee flexion angle, the hip flexion angle, the frontal plane knee motion, right? The ankle dorsiflexion, how much during the eccentric phase how hip dominant or knee dominant and during the concentric phase, same thing are you to nth degree and then you can do actual movements like with this is where I believe it's really valuable is understanding force from the ground. So we'll do about 80% of what force plates do and then of course give you the mobility and the range of motion along with that and give you your reactive strength indexes, the heights, the velocities of takeoff. And then of course tie it all back into the kinematic sequencing of how you did that. And what's exciting about it is we've been very closely correlated to the gold standard marker systems, which of course are going to always be the most accurate. But once you pull those markers off and you're working with Markerless systems, we're right there with systems that cost half a million dollars and we're two cameras operating.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. That's awesome. Tell me about is there any extrapolation of force created with this system? So let's say when you do a standard jump or you do a box jump and you're using Uplift, do they give you a force metric? I'm sure they can give you a rate of force development, but can they get to the force extrapolation or No?
Jon Moscot: So what we give you is takeoff velocity. We give you contact time in the eccentric and concentric phase and then we give you your reactive strength index. So with a variance of plus or minus 0.04 in the variance there, as we're not using force plates from the ground, we're not able to tell you how much force you impart from the ground or how much force when your front foot hits in the delivery you are imparting into the ground. You would need force plates to some extent for that or a new force mound. But we again, are able to give those imbalances and ranges of motion that could decrease performance or increase injury risk and give you to some extent the amount or not only the height, but the power that you generate in your takeoff velocity and of course the reactive strength index.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay, love that. I could totally see how worthwhile that would be to put into a clinic. Have you gotten to the point where you can stratify injury risk or you come up with an overarching number to say you are this amount likely to injure this given joint, you have enough data for that yet?
Jon Moscot: So we don't have enough data to flag individual injury markers in that if you are at X, Y, and Z in terms of your layback, because we're not taking kinetics right now, we're only taking kinematic sequencing. If you were to take a raw CSV from our data, you could infer that information and create your own flags and markers from our data. But the way that we currently operate is in our PDF reports that we generate post capture, we would provide a player or a coach a full writeup of kind of their... Whether it be a bullpen or a jump or a squat or even a rotational movement on the sagittal plane is kind of where we operate the best.
Jon Moscot: We're going to give you guys a quick idea of like let's say you took a 10 capture process. You took 10 videos, we would identify in those 10 videos, for example, I'm just gonna use a picture how many times you had forearm flyout where there was a higher potential of ACL injury risk. And we'll give that in the PDF file, but again, we only have about 15 or so markers. There are others that others are going to want and we'll work with people to create those, but we currently don't have it baked into the system.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, I will say, just thinking more concretely when you talk about being agnostic across sport, when you're coming back from an ACL, you're very easily going to give me enough data to compare affected limb to unaffected limb in terms of rate of force development, in terms of joint angle production, all those things. As a PT, I don't know that I need way more than that. If you can give me a baseline of the good leg, right? And then we can do interventions and come back and check in a week or check in four weeks, that's gold, dude. I mean that's what...
Jon Moscot: Yeah, that's a great point is kind of how some of the PTs that have been operating with our product have been utilizing it is they've been very excited about okay, well we know what your individual baseline is, let's get you back to your baseline as opposed to some unrealistic marker that we're gonna make you perfect for every single Call it softball player or a college soccer player.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. But do you have enough data to the point where, because our force plate stuff, one of the things that I've loved about force plates is that you can stratify it based upon given demographics. So I know what a division one lacrosse Midi looks like with a jump test. So are you there?
Jon Moscot: Long story short, currently, no. We will, I mean, we just don't, this is our seventh year as a company, but really go to market. It's our third year. So I mean, in terms of extrapolating the necessary data to feel confident about the inferences that we wanna make and that we would provide to end users we're not quite there yet.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Well get me that system 'cause I will build out that data set immediately for you. That is fascinating to me. Nuts and bolts of it. We put force plates in one of our clinics and I had two different reactions. I put 'em in one clinic and man, they jumped all over it. They spent the necessary time and it was a big learning curve because there's just so much data provided by this technology system. And I think PTs like got paralyzed by it. One clinic dove in head first, they are a force play clinic, another clinic, dude, it collected dust because PTs were number one, I think, paralyzed by how much data it produced and being able to articulate the findings rapidly to the patient. And two, it might have taken the whole session to set up and to calibrate. So walk me through Uplift. How long does it take to set up? How long does it take to get data to the patient?
Jon Moscot: Yeah, it's a great question. I think one of the big opportunities for us in this space is that there's no hardware involved, right? You have a couple of iPads or a couple of iPhones and a couple of tripods. You can manually set it up. You say, Hey, guess take a ruler and measure out 11 feet or eight feet or whatever your space looks like. And the thing is that the cameras would need to be set up at a 90 degree angle from each other. But that's pretty easy. You use the corner of a room, you just measure out eight feet, eight feet or you could do it right in the middle of the room. And then once you have that marked off, right? You've put a piece of tape on the ground and set up one... Like if that takes three minutes, right, the next time you wanna set it up, it takes 10 seconds to open up the cameras Bluetooth connect and get your data. As it currently exists, like if a client or an individual were to go through a movement assessment let's say you took 20 captures of a squat a lunge, a overhead squat, a counter movement jump, and you were like okay, you're done. That report would generate within 15 minutes and you'd be able to hand it out to the individual or just send it via email.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: That is awesome. So all in, it's 15 minutes of time not counting setup, which could be as little as one minute once you get really good at it, or you could just leave it set up. It should be pretty easy.
Jon Moscot: Yeah. Most people just leave it there. Yeah.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. So within 15 minutes you're able to hand them all of that information and possibly brainstorm around it. Talk to me about, do you guys prescribe anything? Automatically based upon the data. Say, okay, you're missing this amount of range of motion on your jump testing, we recommend this set of exercises.
Jon Moscot: We don't prescribe exercises. That's one of the things that we kind of leave up to individuals and coaches. We've been asked about that or well what would you do in this particular area? And we are in development on some things there. But we do rely at this point on the individuals utilizing the tool to then go ahead and make the necessary coaching adjustments or PT adjustments or strength coaches that use this. And we see a lot of that well received from coaches. Some have asked us to help them curate their own plans. It's just, it's kind of hit or miss on what people want. At this point we're not quite there yet, but like for example in a general report on a single leg jump I know I briefly talked about hip dominance and knee dominance, but we will say that you'll see the angles of the knee and the ankle dorsiflexion and the hip flexion and the differences will be pointed out from each hip or each flexion from your body as you go through the movement. And it will be pretty stark where you would wanna make the adjustment with that individual if it was something that was inhibiting them from moving well.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. And I was gonna say, I almost cut you off at the beginning of that, which is, I'm glad you don't have it because a good therapist shouldn't need it. I think we should know what we're doing with that information as long as it's easily accessible. I guess can you train on Uplift.
Jon Moscot: In what sense?
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Meaning, can you do exercises and use the data in real time to say, no, no, no, you're weight shifting. Look here, it's clear that you're weight shifting in a bilateral squat. Make sure you're living in the middle so that it's instead of capturing, sending off, is there any world where you can work with that?
Jon Moscot: So yeah, so we're working to keep it on device, but as of right now, it's not gonna be in real time. It is through a process of going back, like phone wifi loads up to the cloud, and then the cloud pumps the report out and sends it to you as the admin user on the account. And that's kinda how it operates. Eventually we see it getting on device to where it's immediate feedback but it's again, not quite there yet.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. And just as a measurement tool I could just totally see the value of keeping this as simple as possible. So I don't know that you're missing anything. What do you think Uplift is missing that you're dying for them to add on?
Jon Moscot: Frankly, I think that it does need on device assessment and on device comparison from an athlete from, let's say January 15th to February 15th, as of right now, it would be looking in the account on the web and seeing the PDFs and saying, okay, here's the difference over time, which isn't that challenging, but it would be great to be able to using AI point out like the adjustments you've made or haven't made.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah. Like trend lines. Yeah.
Jon Moscot: Right, right.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. I could see that. It's also... I think you undersold this, the fact that you can capture and measure rotational movement is something that does not exist in the force plate world. Dude, I love that. I love that.
Jon Moscot: Yeah, it's really cool. We've gotten a lot of love on rotation as really no one else is able to capture rotation with any type of accuracy.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah. That to me is totally fascinating. I would love to see a world in which you can train on it and in between each rep you're able to say, no, that was too slow or that was faster stuff like that. I think that has a lot of legs, but man there's a lot there. What do you think the biggest barrier to being in a privately owned sports PT clinic is with Uplift?
Jon Moscot: Yeah. The biggest barrier is always gonna be how accurate is the data and...
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: You told me it's super accurate.
Jon Moscot: Yeah, no, it is, it is [laughter] data to be very accurate. But it's always gonna... To do something new. And a lot of PTs are kind of stuck in the, I see it with my eyes. I know what I'm doing. I don't need something to tell me that, we get a lot of that and it's always kind of a barrier and unless you're within plus or minus five degrees or five whatever, right? Which we generally find ourselves, but there's always gonna be a question around it. And so I think that's probably the biggest barrier. But we do stand by our information and we're very confident in what we do. That's why we haven't gone and just done a bunch more yet is we really wanna make sure that we're doing it the right way.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: I would love to see how much data or I guess like how large of a like field surface area you could cover. Because I would love to know what the athlete looks like when they do a three step breakdown and go to change direction. Like how much can you capture there?
Jon Moscot: Yeah, actually, it's funny you say that. So we just did a cutting movement with one of the major sports... I can't really say the name right now, but a sport in which you cut a lot and.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: You could say the name of the sport, can't you? You can't...
Jon Moscot: Yeah. Yeah. I guess I could say that we did it with basketball, right? So as you move through basketball and you go make a cut, it was around that same movement one, two, cut, three, four and we found that in frame, your data was great, it was all accurate, but as soon as you exit the frame with... Is like that third, fourth, fifth step, it starts to display a little bit of the limb lengths and then kind of skew the data. So we're working on making that a larger area, but of course there's a lot of engineering behind that and all the things that go into that.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: How much surface area can you get in frame, I guess? How large is that frame?
Jon Moscot: It's about 16 by 16. 16 feet by 16 feet right now.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Dude if it's 16 by 16, I feel like there are tests that you can come up with or like multi hop variations that you could look at that I think that's super powerful.
Jon Moscot: Yeah, yeah. There certainly isn't. With manual distance entry in terms of setting up the cameras, you can go back up to 17 feet.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Wow. Okay. Dude that's awesome. I'm thinking there was an age old test I believe actually from a doctor in Cincinnati called like the Noyes Triple Hop Test for return to sport. N-O-Y-E-S was the doctor's name, and that was the gold standard of return to sport with ACL, which is insane because it's very archaic and it doesn't take into account any of movement quality, just movement outcome. But if you did a double hop test, a single leg double hop test, you're not covering more than that square footage that now you're really gonna see that data of what kind of angles you're at. That would be awesome.
Jon Moscot: Yeah, I just was talking to a gentleman down in Australia with the Australian Football League and it was interesting because they were asking for similar information of, hey, we, you know, this is something that we really value, how do you, because we do force plates, we work with force plates, but we really are interested in movement.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yep.
Jon Moscot: We capture movement and this was the way that they could capture movement.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: And they are the best PTs in the world, the Aussies, so you're onto something there.
Jon Moscot: Yeah, they were pretty dialed in, I was impressed.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Especially with force plate stuff, dude, they are like savants. Okay, so that's... I think that's a great description of Uplift. I think it makes a lot of sense why you guys are so successful. How about this? How much does it cost to use Uplift?
Jon Moscot: Yeah, so we operate on a per capture model and generally speaking, we'll work with colleges and sports organizations. There's a little bit of a different tiering system, you know, at our first price entry level would be 2,400 total captures. And you can have, you know, you can do pitching, you can do hitting, you can do movement. That would be 5k, where we go all the way up to, you know, if it's an enterprise organization with multiple facilities and you want to do, you know, 50,000 captures, you know, it's closer to that, like, you know, 25k or so on and so forth number where you guys are, you know, it's a little bit more feasible for organizations to do it that way. But there's, you know, there's different tiers and it stacks differently so that it can be, like you said, if you get force plates at one facility and then another, right? You're not like investing in hardware that you have to leave somewhere, right? You can just basically, hey, go use your captures here and we'll do it across, you know, 20 different spots.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: That is awesome. And then that's for 5k a month, I get 2,400 captures or that's for every 2,400 captures, it costs me $5,000.
Jon Moscot: 2,400 captures is, is basically your, your 5k. So, you know, if you were guys like, let's say an organization was like, hey, we anticipate that across all of our organization, we're going to do, you know, 50,000 captures in the year, right? That ends up being, I misspoke am sorry. Our 20k package is 10,000 captures, 50,000 captures across the whole board. That's 50,000 videos. That's a lot. You're using that a lot, right? But like that's 90k on the year for everything. You know, at 10,000 captures, it's 20k, right? So it comes out to about $2 a capture. And again, every capture you get, you're going to get a report.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yep. Yep. And okay. So a capture is one session.
Jon Moscot: A capture is like, hey, you know, do a jump, right? That's a capture. So what we recommend for somebody is like, if you're going to do a movement assessment, do one or two of each movement and you'll get a pretty good idea. And then, you know, and then you can like, hey, I want you to do two right single leg squats and two left single leg squats. That would be like four captures.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. Gotcha. That makes a lot of sense. So reasonable. I wish it were cheaper, but, reasonable. Yeah. For what you're getting. And I love that it's not hardware. You're talking to a guy like me, who's managing 14 different locations and you're doing thousands of patients a month, but if you're not using it, you're not really paying for it., so that's kind of, that's really interesting to me.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: I love it. What, what else am I missing from Uplift to give like, as a part of your sales spiel?
Jon Moscot: I think we, I mean, we covered a lot here, we covered a lot about, you know, the technical innovation. I mean, I think really what it comes down to is that in this space, there are three different players, one being the, you know, the multi-camera markerless systems that you set up in a facility. And that's going to cost you, you know, a quarter of a million dollars, half a million dollars to get this going. And that's going to be the gold standard, right. For markerless motion capture. The other end of the spectrum is going to be like your three motion AI and your pro play where like, they just don't call it or, you know, they don't pull off of, you know, fast movements as well as something like Uplift with a multi-camera system.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: So we kind of fit into the space in the middle where like, we're not as cheap as some of the other, and we're not as expensive, but where we do fit is we're, you know, we're accurate and we provide the portability that, you know, you, that you find when you do invest in something like a pro play or a three motion, we're just going to kind of take it to that next tier for an organization. And again, as you said, right, like the, the incentive, of course, to start at a higher level as you get it per capture lower price point, but there's no... There's nothing to say, hey, we don't want to start at like, you know, you know, the 15K package. And then if we use it really well, then we just grow from there.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah. That's really awesome. I could definitely see utility. It's a good freaking space to be. Okay. Good job, dude. It sounds like you've sold one or two. Yeah. That's, that's awesome. Okay. Now to our Eric Cressey lightning round. Okay. Quick answers, Jon Moscot. Ready? Who's the best hitter you ever faced?
Jon Moscot: Best hitter I ever faced Miguel Cabrera.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah. But isn't he the guy you tagged out in that rundown?
Jon Moscot: Yeah, but I mean, he hit a missile at me, but he's the best hitter. Ian Kinsler would be upset that I didn't say him.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: What did you do against Kins?
Jon Moscot: I struck him out.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. So that's why he's not the best hitter that you ever faced. Yeah. I'm sure he's listening and smiling somewhere. Okay. What's the most impactful book you have ever read in your life?
Jon Moscot: Most impactful book. The Alchemist.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Because?
Jon Moscot: Just teach you to be present. You know, I think that, you know, that's a generic answer. I think if you're looking for something that's maybe a little bit off the beaten path, some might say it is and isn't. David Goggins book, Can't Hurt Me. I just, when I'm running, I'm running, I'm training for an Ironman right now. Like that's what gets me going, you know?
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: It's, I feel like I had, I was, I listened to David Goggins and I had to like pull over during some of his stories. It's so insane.
Jon Moscot: It's crazy.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: It's crazy. Also at the end of the book, he says some questionable things that my sports medicine brain had trouble wrapping my head around. But his description of what he thinks heaven is, was fascinating to me because it was actually, it was very Judaic. I don't know that he knows that, but I thought that was awesome. Okay, good. Those are good recommendations. What is the best sports movie of all time, Jon?
Jon Moscot: The most serious, my serious answer would be Remember the Titans. And my, Hey, go see a movie that Jon Moscot is in answer would be, go see the bench warmers. Okay.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: I was hoping you were going to say bench warmers. How the hell do you, how did you get in that thing to that starring role?
Jon Moscot: So I played little league in West Los Angeles, California. And when you live in West Los Angeles, California, you're, you know, inevitably going to rub up against somebody who works in Hollywood. And one of the guys that played on our all-star teams, dad was the producer of all of happy Madison productions with happy Gilmore and Billy Madison. And he was directing bench warmers and was like, I need you to be a pitcher in it. And I was not going to say no.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Did you meet Adam Sandler?
Jon Moscot: Yeah, I did. He was great. He was great guy.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: How much time did you spend with him?
Jon Moscot: He was on set for a couple of days. I just kind of hanging out and shooting the shit for lack of a better word with Spade and Keater and, Schneider, you know, those are his guys. And it was just fun to see him in their element.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: What was he wearing?
Jon Moscot: Just a baggy t-shirt.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: It's Unreal.
Jon Moscot: And what you see It's what you get.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: It's God bless that guy, that's amazing. Okay. Who's the best athlete in the Moscot family?
Jon Moscot: I'm going to have to go with myself.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: That's ridiculous because I read about your siblings and they're insane.
Jon Moscot: They are pretty talented athletes as well. My youngest brother was a division one baseball pitcher. My other brother is actually probably more of the brains of the family. He's absolutely brilliant. Currently studying at Edinburgh for his MBA in Scotland. Yeah, I'm going to take the cake on that one as I didn't get to play in the Olympics and in the big leagues.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: That's fair. I guess, I guess that's hard to argue with. Pepperdine's baseball program versus UCLA's baseball program. What's a better powerhouse? Zach Weiss is listening.
Jon Moscot: UCLA hands us our stuff in a folded bag every year. I wish it were different. If I was maybe pitching on those games, it might be a different story, but yeah, UCLA's got us.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. Good answer. And one misconception of the pro athlete.
Jon Moscot: I think there's a misconception that every pro athlete is, you know, making a ton of money. It's just not, it's not true. You know, guys are grinding. They're dealing with mental health issues. They're dealing with injuries. They're dealing with all kinds of different things. So to associate everybody in that same boat is a little bit unfair. And I see it as a big misconception. Um, granted you have the potential to make a ton of money, but not everybody's there and not everybody, you know, very few people end up doing that. It is something that, is a misconception in the industry.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, dude, it has robbed me of my fan hood. Like spending all this time with you guys is like, it makes it very hard to turn the TV on, on Sunday and be like, God damn it. That guy sucks. Or I meet that guy when, cause I think you hit it when you say the mental health or injuries that y'all are human and there's so much going on that makes you a real person. I think that's a big misconception and it's ruined my outlook on pro sports. So thanks for that, Jon. I appreciate you doing that. Yeah. Dude, this was well worth the wait. Thank you for your wealth of knowledge. I'm super excited to get my hands on some uplift or at least to learn more and watch more about that company. I love watching your career from afar to think that from sitting in that MRI room in Tokyo, in the Tokyo Olympic village to where you are today, it's been awesome to watch.
Jon Moscot: Oh man, it means a lot, Yoni. You'll always have a special place in my heart and I appreciate everything that you do and the love that you give the athletes that you treat. So thank you for having me on.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: I appreciate you. If I'm looking to follow your career, give me your social handles. How can the millions of sports PTs listening to this keep tabs on Jon Moscot and Uplift?
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: I thought it'd be billions to be honest.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Billions.
Jon Moscot: Yeah. You can follow me on Twitter at Johnny Moscot. I'll be honest. I don't tweet a whole lot more active on Instagram at Johnny_Moss, J-O-N-N-Y underscore Moss. Those are probably the two best places to follow along with. And if you, if you do have any interest in uplift and you want to maybe just some information there, feel free to shoot me an email. You know, my email I'll share with everybody. It's Jon.Moscott@uplift.ai that's my email.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. Powerful stuff. Thanks for your time. Thanks for sharing everything. I really appreciate what you've done.
Jon Moscot: Thanks Yoni. Appreciate you.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Thanks guys. Awesome stuff. Jon, you're a pro. Thanks for doing that. Do you want to, you want to listen to it first? Are you good with us posting it? What do you, you're good?
Jon Moscot: Yeah. Yeah. Did I didn't say NBA, did I?
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Nope.
Jon Moscot: All right. So then we're good.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: I hope it was the Knicks.
Jon Moscot: It was the NBA, like the RFP for the entire league.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Hell yes, dude. Okay.
Jon Moscot: We'll see what happens. But yeah.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: That's freaking exciting. And you think you have half of major league organizations?
Jon Moscot: We do.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Why don't you have the other half?
Jon Moscot: Calibration, frankly. They want it calibrated so that it's easy to set up, which we are currently in the process of completing, but, I can't give a timeline on that, the ones who do it have manual distance and don't care. Like it's totally fine. But calibration is probably what's holding us back.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Can you do it, from a distance? Can you run this technology while a guy's on the mound in seventh inning?
Jon Moscot: No, that's, that's an issue. You can't do it live. You can't do it like in a game setting because you have to have the cameras on site. We're working to get it on one single camera where you can do it from like a scouting perspective, which will change the game. But, you know, in order for accuracy, like we need the cameras within a certain like length.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Can you imagine if you could tell a manager that a guy's layback is decreasing and it's time to pull him?
Jon Moscot: Exactly.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Dude, that, that could be super powerful. What do you know about, simi technologies from Germany?
Jon Moscot: I don't.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Dude, Google them. I went to Germany and I was just looking for a way to write off my trip to Oktoberfest. And I found this markerless motion capture that they can do from a distance in real time and I think, I think just the Dodgers and maybe the Yankees like installed them in their stadium, but it was doing exactly what we were just talking about. S-I-M-I.
Jon Moscot: S-I-M-I. I got to look that up.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay, look that up. Jon, please stay in touch. And then having heard that spiel, I'm totally interested in trying this out and then seeing a, how it works in like my setting. But if it works as well as you say it works, I'm interested in like how you could get more of schmucks like me.
Jon Moscot: Yeah, dude. It's good. It's legit. It's why I went and left blast and took this role. But, I mean, whatever, I wouldn't tell you to go buy like a crazy expensive package, but if you were interested in it and you like were thinking it was something that you might want to try out, you could start at one of the lower packages and see if it's something that you guys like. But, yeah, man, it's, it's great tech. Do you have like extra iPads?
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: We'll get, we had, yeah. I mean, we always have iPads floating around, so, but I'm happy to buy iPads. Everyone's got an iPhone obviously. And we've got Volt, force plates in some of our clinics. So I'm not new to like trying some, some tech out and seeing what works.
Jon Moscot: Yeah. Let's keep in touch, man.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. Awesome. Johnny, thank you so much for your time.
Jon Moscot: Yoni. Thank you, man. Talk to you soon.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: We'll talk to you soon, dude.
Jon Moscot: All right. Bye.
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