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Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: What's up, guys? Thanks for tuning in to the True Sports Physical Therapy podcast. Today's conversation is with Danny Matta. He has done awesome things on the business side of sports physical therapy. Very specifically, Danny runs ptbiz.com, and they consult both start-ups in the cash industry, as well as practices that are looking to grow and explode. He really has done an awesome job of dialing in his niche. He works with cash-based practices that cater to the athlete, and he works with over 250 companies nationwide now. He brings a unique mindset and a unique outlook, in that he doesn't have any formal business training, but he brings together all of that which is necessary to take your business to the next level. I really appreciate our conversation, just for how candid Danny is and how open to helping he is. He knows how much value he brings to the entrepreneur, and you're gonna hear that throughout today's conversation. Make sure you pop over to Instagram and give him a follow. Signup for some of his courses. I learned a tremendous amount looking over his courses, even though I'm not in the cash-based PT business and model. Really some great insights here.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: So without further ado, here's Danny Matta. Please share this conversation with any entrepreneur, anyone in the business field who's looking to just grow and better understand their numbers and what it takes to take their business to the next level. Leave us a five-star review wherever it is that you are listening. I can't wait to learn from Danny.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Welcome back to the True Sports Physical Therapy podcast. This one is, I know, gonna be near and dear to my heart because I do so much talking clinically, diving into pathology and pathophysiology, but I freaking love the business side of physical therapy, and there is no one that knows the business side better than my guest today, Danny Matta. Danny, welcome aboard. This is where you say thanks for having me.
Dr. Danny Matta: Hey, yeah, thanks for having me.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: There we go.
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, it's always always fun to be on the receiving end of a podcast. I do so many where I'm talking to other people. It's always great to be a guest.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Well, you come highly recommended by, now a dear friend of mine, Kelly Starrett, who's been an inspiration to my career, and I'm just talking to him about what I wanna do with the pod and things and people that I think would be awesome to bring on. He was like, "You gotta talk to my guy, Danny." So I did a bunch of research on Danny. And obviously, you're up to snuff on the business side. I've worked with a number of consultancies, I've worked with just business consultants and business coaches. I've worked with PT-specific business coaches. You run PT Biz as a consultancy. Tell me what's different about your consultancy than everyone else out there?
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, it's a good question. First of all, yeah, thanks to Kelly, I didn't know that was the mutual connection. He's, dude, like one of the most influential people in my life. He's like a big brother, and I like to think if it wasn't for him, I probably would still be in the military chipping away at my rank and career and whatnot, and I've got a chance to do so many other things that I didn't think I'd be able to do, and it really, a lot of it, I would say, it comes because of my relationship with Kelly and Juliet, his wife. So I really appreciate the connection with him. Now, to PT Biz, I think what's interesting about PT Biz is that we are just very, very focused on cash-based clinicians and hybrid clinicians that really want a big element of their practice to be cash-based. Most of the practices that we work with, we would consider more in the performance sort of lens. These are people that are... They're not just working on... Not to say anything wrong with this, but just like more traditional sort of post-ops and getting people that are Medicare age back to activities of daily living and things of that nature. These are people that have a strong strength and conditioning bias. They want to work with people to help them improve their health and live a pain-free active life for as long as they can.
Dr. Danny Matta: And we really feel like the business model around that is something that we understand very, very well, primarily because my wife and I, we started our own practice like this a decade ago, and had successfully ran and then sold that business, and we got to see first-hand just how much we can help people once we get past pain, 'cause pain is just... They're there because of that, but then, then we have a conversation about sleep, and movement, and nutrition, and stress management, and goal-setting for things that they wanna do, and all of a sudden, we have this opportunity to have this great business wrapped around people that we get to help, that don't know this stuff. And no one's teaching them, and we get a chance to gain their trust and really help them long-term. So I think what PT Biz is unique is because if that sounds like you in any manner whatsoever, that's the business that we know the best. If you're trying to scale a 12 clinic, insurance-based clinic, that's not our wheelhouse, dude. I don't know what to do with that. I'm sure there's plenty of other people, but if you're...
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: I do, I know what to do with that?
Dr. Danny Matta: More of a performance-based clinician and you wanna grow a practice...
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: That's me. That's me.
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, you do. There you go. And that's what I'm saying, I think everybody needs to find their niche. Right? And that's great 'cause that's not... I know nothing about it. But for my people and the people that we help, dude, there's nobody that's specific to that type of practice as we have. And we have, and now at this point, 225 businesses we're working with on an ongoing basis alone, and we get a chance to get those people together a couple of times a year. Dude, it's just such a cool environment for that type of an individual.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: That's really awesome. I love the way that you've dialed into your niche, and you... It sounds like you really know yourself, like here's exactly what I do, here's what I'm great at. When I asked you before we kinda hit record, what your specialty within this consultancy is, you said, "We do two things, we help you start, and we help you scale, and you're somewhere... And if you're not one of those two things, maybe we're not perfect for you." So I love that, as the consumer, you know exactly kind of what you're after. I love the idea of you pulling people together for this retreat-style education. Tell me a little bit more about that. What is that like?
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, so this is something that we started, and I didn't know what to call it, so we just use a general term, Mastermind, which I actually kind of wish we hadn't started saying, just 'cause it sounds weird. It sounds like people getting together to think about how they can take over the world, and that's... For us, basically, it's just a... It's our business development group that we work with on an annual basis, so everybody we're working with, we get a chance to work with them for a year. Most people that are in that Mastermind have been there for, on average, two to three years. We have people that have been there for five, some people are there for one and take what they learn and they run with it. But basically it's how we organize businesses over a 12-month period to learn how to actually gain the skills of sales, marketing, people, and processes, so how do you actually build these four core areas? And what we do is, twice a year, we get together in person. So we'll bring a guest presenter in, for instance, Kelly, is like an example of somebody that's presented at our events, we come together twice a year, we do a workout together one day, we have a big dinner one night, we do big group sort of development stuff with guest presenters and get everybody organizing their business.
Dr. Danny Matta: And then we do small group development stuff. And all along the way, it's a huge networking opportunity for people to meet other clinicians that are just like themselves all over the country. And now you have literally like hundreds of people you could just hit up if you were in town for a night and grab dinner with them. And it would be an awesome conversation because we are so strict about who we let in the damn thing, to begin with. We just cannot have the wrong type of person in there, otherwise it ruins the whole thing. And five years ago, there were five people that I sat at a dinner table with, and we started working with them in this capacity. And fast forward, in September we'll be in Denver, and we'll have probably 220 or so businesses that will be at that. And the size has changed, but to be honest, man, the culture of it and what we focus on is exactly the same.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: That sounds incredible. How much does it cost to be a piece of this?
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, if you wanna work with us, I was once told, "You can't have great and cheap at the same time." We're great at what we do, and it costs about $20,000 a year to work with us, the businesses that we work with. And the reason why is, we get amazing results. The average business that we work with increases their business by about 120% the first year that they work with us. So when you look at ROI comparison, it's pretty easy for us have a conversation with folks. And what's been really cool is to be able to grow a coaching base. We have 13 coaches, and all of these coaches are either high multiple six or seven-figure business owners themselves. And most consultancies that are in our space, in the cash-based world, the people that are teaching haven't even done that themselves. They just found that it's easier just to try to teach other people stuff 'cause running a business is hard. So I think what's interesting about us is that we actually have legitimate entrepreneurs that are successful and currently running their own successful practices. They're in it every day with us, which is awesome to get a chance to do that.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: That, that, dude, that's a selling point because to me, that sounds like graduate school and the massive mistake I made with graduate school, when you look at these rankings and you're looking at all the way people look at the institutions, they're ranked based upon mostly research. And the question I should have been asking which I wasn't was, what are those professors doing? Are they helping athletes get better with me as my sports win? And nine out of 10 times they're not, I went to a graduate school that was heavy neuro-based hospital-based, those guys had never seen an athlete. So how are they gonna help me work with an athlete? And so it sounds like similarly with PT Biz, those who can't do teach too often, and that sounds like you're kind of bucking that trend. So I love that you've got schmucks like me in there who are running a business, teaching others how to do it. There's probably no better teacher.
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah. And I look at it through the lens of a clinician. I don't know any different. I didn't go to get an MBA, I didn't go to business school, I don't have traditional business training by any means. And what I feel like we've lost is sort of this apprenticeship model, like it just doesn't exist outside of the trades. And if you look at the clinical world, the best way to get better is to find a clinical mentor that is doing what you do and that you want to do, and try to get as close to that person as you can and learn from them for...
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yes.
Dr. Danny Matta: And I would take the shittiest job to be with the best person. I did this when I was... When I was at Baylor, we had an opportunity to spend a year in an ortho clinic, and a lot of people pick proximity, they wanted to go to the hospital that was connected to the Air Force Base, and the army base, because it was right there, and that's what we're gonna be doing anyway, we're gonna be active duty and working with soldiers. And there was one guy that I knew was a elite manual therapist, and it was like, 30-40 minutes from where I lived, civilians, I was wearing civilian clothes all day, and I was like, that guy, I want that guy.
Dr. Danny Matta: And it was a great decision. It was an awesome decision 'cause I got a chance to learn from this person that really helped me fast forward for what I was trying to do as far as clinically is concerned, and when you look at the business side, yeah, it's all theory, people are throwing theory around, but it's like, dude, what's working right now? 'Cause I can tell you... I could pull a dozen people from our Mastermind right now and we can have a conversation about, "Hey, what's working as far as local marketing is concerned," and then distill that down, and all of a sudden we have this unique advantage because we have people in all these different demographic areas, but a very similar niche. And it's almost like a franchise, minus the fact that we don't own any of your business, there's not this big ongoing percentage of your revenue that you pay us, it's just basically aggregated information that we get a chance to share. And then you get to stick around as long as or as short as you decide that you want to based on us having to continue to provide value, which we felt was a lot better of an option for the consumer, and it made us have to be really good at what we do in order to keep clients.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: That's so unique, and drills down to exactly why I would sign up for a consultant. The ones that I've swung and missed that in the past, were exactly that they were far too textbook-based, they were far to, "Here's how you read a P&L and here's how you make a projection," and those skills are important, but just tell me how I'm gonna make that goddamn phone ring. Right? That's the gold that I would pay 20 grand for. So obviously, obviously, you're on to something. You mentioned you don't have any classical business training. Where did you get the knowledge? When did you first learn, or where did you first learn to read a profit and loss statement as an example?
Dr. Danny Matta: Where did I learn how to read a profit and loss?
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, yeah.
Dr. Danny Matta: Is that... I'm sorry, is that the question?
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: That's the question. The question is where did you learn?
Dr. Danny Matta: I learned to read the profit and loss... Yeah, so it's... Yeah, sorry, I think my Internet just is a little bit choppy. I actually read a book called The Lemonade Stand, that is basically a kid's book for basic accounting. And in that, it's basically, it talks about how to run a lemonade stand, it goes over a lot of assets, liabilities. This is the first accounting book or financial book, that I ever read. And then from there, I got a lot more interested in that topic in particular, and started diving into a lot of the resources that the Harvard Business Review puts out, which I think are great resources sometimes that are a bit hard to get through. And then from there, I actually started to dive into breaking down public companies as practice. So I would look at public companies, I would look at their assets, their liabilities, how they calculate their debt, and whether it's gap accounting or not, and the ways in which they can to manipulate some of those things. But it has to be audited by a secondary group, and I found that to be really interesting, to help improve my own sort of financial understanding of what was going on. And then if I take that lens and as a more complex business and I apply it to these pretty simple cash-based practices, all of a sudden, it becomes a lot more clear in terms of what you should be doing.
Dr. Danny Matta: But to be fair, when I first started, I would just look at my business bank account, the same day, each month, and I would say, hey, I have more money in there, it's March 15th and in February 15th, I have $1000 more. It's awesome, I made... I'm $1000 better. And that's a terrible way to do it, right? But I did that for probably a good solid six to 12 months before I started to realize, I don't know shit about this. And a lot of it was because we had success without knowing what even we were doing was... What was causing it? We just kinda... We're trying to be amazing with our patients, and just 'cause we wanna get them great results, we actually cared. And go fucking figure, that's kinda rare. So that turned into, people just sending a lot of folks our way, and then it was like, damn, we got a business on our hands, we gotta figure this out. 'Cause it definitely wasn't something I was expecting to do. So I think for a lot of people, you can learn through self-education, and then what really, really helped me was getting business mentorship. One of the first things I did was I signed up for business coaching with the EMyth Group, this was back when they were doing a... It was like a pilot program for smaller businesses. They don't even take businesses that were the size that we were at. I think I was around $200,000 in gross revenue a year.
Dr. Danny Matta: And they were taking 50 businesses that were of that size, and I got assigned a business coach that I worked with. And it's like... It was $18,000, it was the most expensive, it was so expensive to me at the time, to invest in that. And I had this business mentor and all this curriculum to go through, and I would say after that year, that was like the most impactful thing I did to really learn it, but it really started with self-education. I think a lot of people can start there to begin with.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, but I'm sure they talk to you a ton. EMyth, it might have been revisited or something like that. That's the book that opened my eyes to just entrepreneurship. I was a absolute clinical geek, not just clinical, but manual therapist geek, like I was just... That's what I wanted to do with my life, until I read the EMyth and I'm like, holy crap, I think I could support a family doing this, like geeking out over being a clinician. So I'm sure that was super valuable. I did a similar, also a crash course in business through... It was through Goldman Sachs. And it was locally-based, Baltimore had one, and you had to apply and, and it was... Man, that's where I learned all of my, call it accounting acumen or lack there of, but the nuts and bolts. Why is that not taught in graduate school, Danny? Can you please get on someone's teaching roster to educate?
Dr. Danny Matta: Well, I know why I wasn't taught in mine, because I went to a military program, and there was no reason that they would wanna teach us anything about business, it was... I remember we actually had a... We did actually have one administrative course because sometimes PTs will... They'll do what's called a lateral transfer into a... It's still healthcare, but it's a different., it's a different job, and they're basically like the MHAs of hospitals, so the ones that are running hospitals. And you'll have men jump ship to there and whatever. So we had a very small course on that, and that was it. And I think that the average school though, what their teaching is, they're teaching just so that people can pass the national boards, and they wanna make sure that their completion percentage of people that are passing on the first go is really high, I'm assuming that's something they really track closely, they wanna make sure they have a really high pass rate. If you think back to the national boards when you took it, there's a lot of shit on there that you're never ever gonna do again.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: For sure.
Dr. Danny Matta: And I had plenty of professors that said, "Hey, we're teaching you this. Don't worry, never gonna do this in the clinic. But you need to know this for the test. So I think that they're basically teaching to the test, which is a real problem in a lot of ways. And I think in some ways too, I don't think you have to make it business-specific. Most people suck at understanding what to do with money, to begin with. Personally, they have weird psychology issues around it, positive or negative, depending on how they grew up. And I think a lot of people benefit from just basic financial education, whether it's in elementary school, middle school, high school, or if it's college or whatever. It's just something that I think most people are bad at.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: I think you're right. You bring up a good point, but at the very least, man, if guys like you are on faculty at graduate schools, that would've helped me just tremendously. Ironically, the one business class we did have at my graduate program, we had to create a business model, and a business plan and submit it. And I submitted true sports. The way I function now as a private practice, is what I submitted basically to a t, which is humbling in that I haven't come up with a new idea in 15 years. But I submitted it and I think I got like a C minus on it, but it worked. But it works obviously. So I just wish that they were like educating around that, right? Like, how could you have taught me to do that better instead of saying this is a C minus effort. I think would've been really helpful. So, okay. Let's kind of walk through a little bit about how you got to where you are. You leave the military. First of all, thank you for your service. Appreciate it. And you go and you open up a cash practice in Georgia in a windowless office in the corner of a CrossFit gym. Looking back at it, what would you have done differently? Is that's... Right? What would you have done differently when you started your practice?
Dr. Danny Matta: Well, I would've picked a different part of town, probably. So I didn't know. Like I'm not from Atlanta. I went to college in central Georgia, but I'd only been to Atlanta for like Braves games, right. So I didn't really know a ton of people here. And I didn't know the city very well. So, when I got out of the military... And to be honest, I didn't get out of the military to start a business. I got out of the military to teach for MobilityWOD. I got offered the opportunity to teach.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Kelly will do that. Kelly will do that to you.
Dr. Danny Matta: And primarily, yeah. Yes. Yeah, and he was like... He was onto something 'cause he was like, yo, man, we get a lot of military requests. And he wanted me to come on and stand up their tactical department and take a point on a lot of the military courses. And I taught a lot of civilian stuff as well. But I left 'cause I wanted to do that. And I couldn't actually stay in the military and teach for the military. You can't charge... Like if you're a federal employee, you can't charge the federal government, as a contractor 'cause they're already paying you to be whatever your job is. So I just... I literally couldn't stay in. I had to make a decision, and I decided to get out, and that's what I did.
Dr. Danny Matta: And for the first year that I was out, I mean, dude, I was on the road probably three times a month all over the US and the world teaching for the Starretts. And this practice that we started was really a side project. It was something that just gave me something to do during the week, a couple days 'cause I didn't... I wasn't intending to treat people at that much. I wanted to practice stuff that I was teaching other people. So I wanted to treat like two days a week. So I had my schedule open two days a week. And I found the cheapest space that I could find. And just was like, yep, I'm in man. Cool. Just to connect to a gym. I have space that I can use. And dude, like, it's a sketchy part of town where I started my office. Like day one, this is the first time... First day I have patience.
Dr. Danny Matta: I walk out and some dude like breaks some somebody's window to pull a bag out of it. And there's a personal trainer that's there that had had previously played in the NBA and had played overseas and he was a huge human being. He jumps off the loading dock, runs this guy down, pins him on the ground, and until the cops get there, and they arrest this guy. And this is... I'm walking out with like my second patient ever. And the person was like, whoa, is this normal? And I go, I don't know, dude. I don't know anything about this area. And it was a super sketchy area. We used to see crime all the time. And I mean I didn't think much of it, just 'cause... But it definitely limited our growth.
Dr. Danny Matta: Like we weren't in the best part of the city. And as soon as we like moved to a better part of the city, we saw significant growth because of it. So that was a big mistake, I would say. Definitely learn your area, your demographics. But I mean, yeah, it just sort of was unintentional. We just got busier and busier and busier. And fortunately for me, my wife used to run nonprofits. She has a master's degree in nonprofit management, and she is a integrator. She's super organized. And I was just like everything was on paper. I had fucking sticky notes, and she's like, Danny, we can't do this. We were... This is actually working. We're gonna make this into a real business. So she took over basically as like a COO running operations. I was the person in the community trying to get business and developing relationships and seeing patients and training our other staff. And it worked really, really well. So, just thankfully for me, I just married the right business partner unknowingly. 'cause it was a perfect fit for what we were doing.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: So what was... And I think you might have hit on it, but what was the smartest thing that you did while you were starting up that business?
Dr. Danny Matta: The smartest thing that I ever did was get really good at educating people locally. So when I look back at what drove our business... And this wasn't necessarily something that I was doing on purpose to drive business. This was something I was doing to help sharpen my skillset for teaching for the Starretts. And so I was teaching on all these component pieces that I would present on as part of the different courses that we had at CrossFit gyms, at any gym, honestly. Workplace, I did a bunch of lunch and learns with this stuff, and I was testing stuff that I was gonna be presenting 'cause I wanted to make sure it was like really dialed in and it was clear. And so I was doing that sometimes, every week, twice a week, all over the city of Atlanta. I mean, I probably taught somewhere around 60-70 locations in and around the city between businesses and gyms and all kinds of other like locations in the first year.
Dr. Danny Matta: So just me doing that as I look... When I look back on it, I was like, damn, how many people was that? And not only not obviously all of them came in to see me, but I had a lot of patience from that. And then I also... It's like you leave an impact on somebody when you do a good job of teaching something in person, if they can remember that and then they show somebody else something. I mean, that one year of me doing that probably to this day still pays dividends for that business. Even we don't even own it anymore. So I think that... I'm such an advocate for being involved in the community with our businesses because I saw first-hand what that did for us. And if you can do that and you can educate somebody that's a really unique skill, they can really drive a business and grow a business.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah. It's also a skill that we went to school to learn. And I've heard you hit on this piece, which is we're really good at getting patients to buy into a treatment, program, to an intervention, to an exercise. We spent years honing that craft. Similarly, we're great educators, right? So if we can take that and instead of just applying it clinically, but apply a marketing aspect to it, we're already should be masters at that as physical therapists. And I think one of the things you talked about was exactly that, was hey, we're already educating our clientele. We're educating our patients. That's how we know we're good PTs. That's what we're taught to do. Now, we just gotta say, I wanna get you to commit to four, six weeks of a treatment package and then you begin to sell that. And now, now, you're an entrepreneur. That's the difference between clinician and entrepreneur. But the skills are so similar.
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, they really are. The thing with sales that I found interesting, it's a dirty word in our profession.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Shouldn't be.
Dr. Danny Matta: We're selling people on shit all time.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Shouldn't be. You know who's good at it? You know who good at it?
Dr. Danny Matta: Fortunately for me...
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Chiros are good at it, [laughter] Why are they... They're so good at it. It shouldn't be a dirty word to us.
Dr. Danny Matta: Yes, I agree. And I've had a chance to work with a lot of chiropractors with their businesses at this point. And what I've come to realize is they don't have a choice, right? So like, here's what happens if you're a chiropractor. You can either go be somebody's associate and they get treated worse than us, as like a staff pt. Or, you go out on your own. And it's still, it's not... There's not a single chiropractic university that's attached to a legitimate medical university. So they got an uphill battle out the gate, man. And they have to understand how to, eat what they killed. They don't have a choice. So I think they're better at it because they don't have any options. Their life is harder from the get-go than us.
Dr. Danny Matta: We can go get jobs at many different, locations and settings and big practices. So I think that's the biggest difference. Plus, it's something that they definitely get a good bit more business education than we do in school probably, 'cause they know that's what's gonna happen. But we don't get a ton of it. And I just think that what people just have to realize when they start looking at how they apply this in the lens of their own business is they already have 90% of the skill. They are getting people to do these weird exercises and to make habitual life changes, on a regular basis. That is actually harder than getting somebody to commit to a plan of care with you and paying for it. I think the thing that holds people up more than anything is that they have a real challenge with money, talking about money and perceiving what they value themself at. Even though they know they're a great clinician and they see what they're doing with people, they don't really know how to value that, or if they're undervaluing themself or overvaluing themself, or maybe they get real nervous whenever they bring up money because it was something in their household that no one ever talked about.
Dr. Danny Matta: And it was like this real taboo thing. So I find more people have to struggle and get past the money psychology side of it and actually understand, what that means to them and how to view it in a better lens. And once they do that, then all of a sudden they're selling like ninjas, because they, they already have the skill set and they have a product people want. I mean, the service, people want it. And we do a good job. And it's just be really, really cool to watch people learn that and apply that because it's not just in the business that that helps so much. It's like having conversations with anybody outside of the clinic that's just so much better. You're more assertive, you're more confident with how you say things. You understand sort of like some of the economics of the world a bit differently and you can be more confident with money decisions around your household. So I think that it's a really cool skill to learn and probably the best side effects of anything that we see people on the business side that pick it up. Yeah.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: How did you learn your worth?
Dr. Danny Matta: Man, that's a good question. A lot of it for me, when I got out, this was my goal. I was making about seven, I think it was $78,000 a year as a captain in the army when I got out. So I said, all right, I just gotta replace that and I'm good. Right? That's a lateral transfer for me. And if I make more than that, awesome. And when I sat down to really build out like a basic plan of like, what am I gonna charge? How am I gonna find people, I remember I had a conversation with two different people. One was Kelly and one was somebody, her name is Theresa Larson who used to teach for the Stretch as well. And she has a company called Movement rx. She's a badass. She's just like doing all kinds of cool stuff now. But she had started her practice with her husband.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Hold on. Should I get her on the pod?
Dr. Danny Matta: I guess it was maybe six...
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Do I need to have her on the podcast?
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, she'd be awesome. She's really cool.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay. Put me in touch.
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah. Theresa Larson is awesome. And her husband is awesome too. TI think they actually might have recently sold that business 'cause she wrote a book that kind of blew up and she teaches all over the place. But, anyway, she... I had a conversation with them and I was kind of talking about what I was gonna charge and both of them were like, dude, you're not charging enough money. I wanted to charge like a hundred bucks, and Kelly wanted me to charge like 200 and Theresa and pair, same thing. And so I was like, well, maybe I'll meet you guys in the middle at one 50, and they're like, it needs to be higher than that. So 175 was what I charged. And I actually didn't think that... I didn't think anybody would pay that.
Dr. Danny Matta: And I thought, all right, well I'll just do this to say I did it and then I'll just drop it down when it's not working. And the very first patient I had, this is actually... It's probably the most impactful business interaction that I had. His name was Sam. He was a defense contractor. He did like shooting and self-defense, like hand-to-hand stuff for police departments all over the southeast. And he lived in Alabama. He drove like three hours to come to my office. So he was like, how much time do you have? And I told him, I got a three-hour block. I'm busy after that. I didn't have shit to do by the way. I didn't have anything after that.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Eight hours.
Dr. Danny Matta: And I was like, I wanna at least sound like I did. Yeah, I was like, I didn't want to be like, I got all day. How much time do you want? So I told him I got three hours from like 9:00 to 12:00, and he goes, okay, I'll take all three. So he shows up and this guy is just like got all kinds of problems. He'd been a career police officer, sitting in kit in his car, like all day just getting out, running after people and all kinds of injuries.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: In a mess.
Dr. Danny Matta: And a mess. Such a hard job man. And so we're working through stuff and for three hours, we went through all kinds of different assessments, and I built out this program for him. And mind you, this is June in Atlanta, Georgia in CrossFit gym with no air conditioning. So we're sweating all over each other, and he's just this big, big dude. And we go back to my office and I'm like, okay man, I'm gonna email you all this other stuff. And, he pulls out a lot of cash and he comes over and gives me like a big bear hug.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Sweaty. All sweaty.
Dr. Danny Matta: He squeezed me so hard it popped my back. Yes. Dude, a big sweaty bear hug, squeeze me so hard my back popped. And I remember I was like, oh cool, that was... Thanks for coming, for making the trip. And he just put it down on the desk. I didn't even count. I didn't count it 'cause I didn't want... Didn't know that's... That looked like a rookie move. And he's like, that was awesome, thank you so much. And he left. And dude, I remember sitting there and I was like, this actually worked. Oh my God.
Dr. Danny Matta: And I opened up the little wad of cash. It was $525, which is my hourly rate times three hours to the dollar. And I remember I was like, holy shit. People will pay this. They were right. They were right about it. So I don't think it would've been as impactful if somebody would've paid me with a credit card. But because he paid me with cash, and he was so excited to do it, and he had driven such a far distance. I remember it was like such a big confidence boost for me because like that was a great moment. And then I had this really tough couple weeks where I wasn't really getting anybody to come and see me. And I feel like if that hadn't happened, man, who knows. I would've like really probably changed my business model a lot, and it was big. So I think getting cash from somebody and that first patient, really set the tone for what I felt like I could do.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, that's powerful. And you never realize how far that'll go and how one interaction will go. It obviously buoyed you for weeks, if not years. So, obviously, you're the cash-based guru. Steelman me the case for starting a cash based practice 'cause you're talking to a dude who lives in the in-network world currently.
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I think if you're talking scale, I don't think it's a comparison. In-network, the scale, the exit opportunities are much better, right? So if you're trying to really scale to a big service-based business and you want to have an exit to probably private equity or a hospital and have a big, big multiple attached to that, a cash-based practice is not the right decision for that individual. But here's what I see happening and has been really been happening quite a lot for the last five years in particular. The average debt that people are coming out of school with is somewhere in the range of 150 grand per the APTA. And if you look at that person and they say, okay, I've got 150 that I owe, and I'm gonna get a job and I'm gonna make, let's call it $75 to $80,000 in a job where I'm gonna be seeing a bunch of patients that I really don't have any interest in seeing, why am I doing this?
Dr. Danny Matta: 'Cause then I... They start to really regret the decision that they made, and they start to get really burnt out and then they start to look at other careers. It's very common to see that happen these days. And what I see... When I first started like talking to schools, I talk to schools constantly about cash-based stuff. I'm doing it next week for a school that's here in Georgia, and there's one school in particular. It's in Indiana, southern Indiana. And my buddy Jeremy Houser's one of the professors. And for the last five years he's had me talk to them. And the first year that I talked to them, no one had a single damn question for me. No one knew what I was talking about. No idea. Fast forward five years later, I have so many questions. People are so aware of it and I'll tell you who it is.
Dr. Danny Matta: It's the PTs that are interested in sports med, performance-based work, the PTs that are interested in like going to the gym, and they wanna read about Peter Attia's shit and Kelly's stuff and, and learn about nutrition and stress management and sleep and movement nerds and all that stuff, those people, the exchange is basically this. You spend a couple grand for the equipment that you might need to start this business, get some low subleased overhead space that's probably gonna run you anywhere between 250 and a thousand dollars a month depending on the city that you're in. And within a six to 12-month period, you can replace and/or increase your earning potential by working for somebody else if you do it the right way. It's very common for us to see PTs be able to double their take home pay just by having a moderately successful cash-based practice in this performance niche. So I think for that person, it's kind of a no-brainer to at least try, 'cause you're not gonna bankrupt yourself. You're already in $150,000 worth of debt. What's a couple extra grand to you at that point? Right. It's worth a try. And I think that's what I'm seeing a lot of people do, because the exchange for the effort is significantly higher.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, I totally, see that. How do you bring on staff to a model like that? What precludes them from doing exactly what you did?
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, it's a great question. This is the probably biggest challenge to scale. And the barrier to entry for in-network is higher, also the visibility to the business is much harder to understand. So it definitely keeps people from maybe transitioning to an in-network practice more so than in a cash-based practice. And the reason that people stay, and what I see is a lot of people... Entrepreneurs think everybody wants to be an entrepreneur. And that's not the truth. There's plenty of people that just wanna have a cool job and be a part of a great community, a great culture. And these are the three big things that are either gonna keep somebody or drive them away. Because the very first thing is hiring... Hiring that first hire is the hardest. It's the hardest because you have... Your business doesn't look that cool, they're taking a chance on you, and you're selling them on the vision of what your company is gonna turn into. So you have to be a really clear, strong leader in order for that to happen, and you have to give them an opportunity to really grow within the company as well. So what stops them is culture, what stops them is the actual consistency of their paycheck sort of structure in which that you have them in.
Dr. Danny Matta: If you have them in a really low base salary with lot of bonus comp, the likelihood that they leave goes up a lot more than if they have a super steady income. And then the other thing is the patient population they work with. So if you can provide an amazing patient population for a clinic nerd that just wants to be awesome at what they do, that's an ideal person for these practices, where they're like, Dude, I'm dying in this high volume clinic, I need more time to work with my patients 'cause I know I can get amazing results, and I just want highly motivated people, that are gonna do what I say so that I can actually test... I wanna test drive this shit that I built. They got this Ferrari and they can drive it in first gear in a high volume clinic. You put them in a clinic where people are one-on-one with them for an hour, dude, all of a sudden, it opens it up for them and they love it. So finding the right fit, the right person, and then taking all the bullshit away from them to make their life better or better work-life balance, that's the key. And that's really the key for any business, 'cause it's gonna be stability of their paycheck, culture, and then work-life balance.
Dr. Danny Matta: Can you make their life better? 'Cause if you can do that, dude, we can coach a lot of people from in-network practices, they want nothing to do with high volume, but they don't want the exchange 'cause they think it might be an inferior job in a lot of ways, but if you can make it level, all of a sudden, they have a better life, they can make just as much money, they're not documenting for two hours every Saturday morning, and they get to work with the population that they love, I think from what we've seen with hiring clinicians, that's a win-win. And they love it.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: What is that split that you see really keeping people in base salary or guaranteed salary versus bonus structure?
Dr. Danny Matta: I think it has to be a pretty high base salary. And what a lot of people will do, you can find people that are new grads that are just interested in mentorship, and they're like, dude, I'm down. You pay me four grand a month, I have an opportunity to make some bonuses, like I'm in. 'Cause I wanna learn. But they're also transient, right? They're gonna be gone in a year or two. And that's actually quite normal for the people that are graduating in general. They just view everything as like everything... Everybody's a free agent, right? So you gotta give them a real reason to wanna stay. And if you can get their base salary up to a point where it is really close to what somebody's making somewhere else, and they have an opportunity to have bonuses attached to that based on volume, then I think you're good to go. Where we see most people, like if you can have a base salary... And it's very regional by the way, so if you're in DC it's gonna be different than Atlanta versus if you're in LA or something, or maybe in the middle of Texas where the cost of living's very low. But in Atlanta, at a minimum, what we're seeing is people really need to be in probably the low to mid 70s as a base, if not a bit higher than that. And then have the opportunity to have bonuses that really bring them up into the mid 80s to 90s.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, and I think we're kinda seeing the same thing, even in network where you're kind of living right in that sweet spot. I guess the next question is, how big have you seen these cash practices get?
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, I think they're just starting to scale. It's interesting. I mean, we've seen a number that have scaled up past seven figures. There's actually a lot that are considered out of network practices, which you could kind of consider. I mean, I do consider those in the same lens. There's many of those that are... Have scaled to multiple locations, especially in the northeast. Some of the laws have changed on some of this. But I think that you can grow them into probably... I mean this might be my own limiting belief, but probably 3 to $5 million businesses with each practice.
Dr. Danny Matta: Like if we look at one of these practices, if you're staffing this correctly, and let's say you have a location where you can have three providers and yourself still doing some amount of work, you're looking at probably 800,000 to 1.2 million in revenue that you can generate in one of those facilities because the other area that we have a really distinct advantage is actually in training. So one of the things that we've found is doing things like semi-private training with the actual clinicians running it, it's such an uneven playing field for us to compare ourself to Orangetheory or even a personal trainer, especially when that person has taken you from being in terrible pain to all of a sudden you can do whatever you want. Now, all of a sudden they wanna do whatever you're saying, and the premium you can charge for that is pretty significant for what you can charge them for what they're paying.
Dr. Danny Matta: So I think that the recurring revenue side of three different sort of aspects, one is not really recurring, but re-occurring in the business would be patient visits, a lot of people are coming back for ongoing work, and they wanna do stuff proactively in those models. Two, would be like some sort of training model in person where that's one-on-one small group, semi-private, and then the third one is remote programming, so the digital element of those businesses. So layering on programming for people that are not wanting to come in on a regular basis, but they want somebody to intelligently put together what they're gonna do at their home gym or when they're traveling, or whatever it might be. And those three... 'cause we can just look at volume, visit volume, and that's only one variable. What people forget about are these other ones that are actually quite significant and recurring, which adds a mass amount of value to these businesses. So once you dial those in on top of the patient visits, that's where it becomes a really solid business.
Dr. Danny Matta: It can have profit margins that are gonna be 30 sometimes 40%, depending on how you set these businesses up. I just got a PNL shot of one of our practices that we work with. Let me see if I can pull this up real quick. I'll tell you the exact numbers. So in May, their practice top line did 121,000 in revenue and their net income was $47,899. So if we look at the profitability of these businesses at scale, they're pretty solid for service-based businesses. And again, like I said, you just can't... You're not getting fed by Blue Cross or whatever, and you just have all these visits that are coming in and the evals, and you gotta scale really quickly. I don't think you can do that 'cause it's gonna take years to grow to a business that size. But once it's there, it's really hard to screw up, super hard to screw up, 'cause you have no dependency whatsoever on basic referral sources or insurance, like you basically would have to be a huge dick to everybody, and they would leave. That's the only way you mess that up.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, okay. My fear in ingoing cash because I started our business nine years ago, and I was kind of like, What do I do? Do I wanna be in-network? Do I wanna be out of network? Do I wanna be cash? I had far gotten over the, what am I worth conundrum, I was willing to ask for a million dollars a session, and I went in-network. And my thought was, how am I gonna grow this thing? And how do I make money when I'm not there, right? How do I generate revenue when I'm not there? Or it's by design, my practice is not called Yoni's PT. I don't want people showing up to see Yoni, I want them showing up for True Sports to know that they're gonna get one-on-one care for 45 minutes in an elite level environment. So those were my thought processes. I think that's how you screw it up, is you start to pull the owner away in the cash model if he is the guy, if that is the name that's generating that business. So how do you guard against that in the cash model?
Dr. Danny Matta: Well, I did it. So it's a difficult transition, but what typically happens is you go from Schedule availability to saturation, if you're doing a good job of keeping people around on a recurring basis, that is something that I didn't know I was doing that, but I was. And I had all these people that would just come to me once, twice a month forever, basically. And so at a certain point, I couldn't take any new clients. So it was either you come and see someone that has trained with me or you can go somewhere else, that's the decision. And for most people, they're gonna work with the person that you've worked with, especially if you hire the right people, then they're gonna be the right fit for your culture, which is what people are looking for. And from there, it snowballs the same way with them. And then eventually, they have less and less new patients and they have more and more recurring, and that's how we see these snowball. But at the point when we sold our business, I hadn't seen a patient in, man, probably 14 months. Yeah, completely... And I hadn't seen a new patient in probably 2 1/2 years.
Dr. Danny Matta: So for me, I think it requires you actually removing yourself from the business, which a lot of people don't wanna do. And I don't think there's anything necessarily wrong with that either, because for a lot of folks, they wanna be that clinical mentor, they wanna have their hand in that, they can't do the whole time 'cause they're trying to run a business, but like this sort of sweet spot lifestyle, bigger lifestyle business, I see a lot of people have a lot of satisfaction in those models, where they're still in it, they're still seeing patients, they have this small culture, and they like it. They like being a part of that. I think what you've done is really smart to be able to say, hey, we're in-network, we're still working with you one-on-one in a 45-minute period of time. And in order to scale that and actually be able to have your average visit rate be enough for you to be able to say, we're not gonna make you see 20 people a day, that's a hard thing to do. And to be honest, that's hard to compete with with the businesses that we work with, because on paper, it's the same unless that person has a terrible deductible, which a lot of people do.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Sure.
Dr. Danny Matta: We gotta keep that in mind too, it's just like insurance benefits kind of suck now, so especially when those roll over, the playing field's completely level, you're out of pocket completely until you need it.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, yeah, I think we've done well taking... 'cause now we've gone... As we've multiplied and spread out a little bit, we come up against cash-based models or even out-of-network models, we find it's really hard to rehab an ACL out-of-network. I mean, you gotta have some serious network to do that. And so you're exactly right, like our model, we have figured that out, how to manage our overhead and how to construct salaries and comp and stuff like that. It's hard go up against. What kind of multiples is a cash business generating on an exit?
Dr. Danny Matta: From what I've seen, it's anywhere between three to six times EBITDA. Some people will have... And some will value this differently. It's very subjective, but that's what we've seen. Anywhere between three to six. Six is at the high end. That would be... You're not involved whatsoever, you have multiple locations and a long track history of... A long history of being very profitable. But for a lot of them, it's gonna be somewhere around a three. It would be on the lower side, 'cause these are gonna be smaller businesses. And I don't think it's necessarily the right play. We sold our practice because we're so busy with PT Biz that it was a time thing. I actually love running the business. My wife and I missed the business, actually, not some of the problems that are associated with running a business, but the people, we miss the culture that we created. It's a fun place to be, but I think the better bet for these types of businesses is actually to really long-term look at how can you create a partnership model with people that can be running the business and have some skin in the game, and you still own it, and you have a legitimate passive revenue business that is the spitting off dividends, far more dividends than any stock you can possibly invest in for as long as that business is around, and you can be very, very passive with it.
Dr. Danny Matta: I think that sort of auto-pilot asset is a far more valuable way of going about it that can generate a lot of financial security versus, hey, you get a 3X multiple, what are you doing in three years if you don't have another thing that's replacing that? You might have a big chunk of money, but you're gonna burn through it pretty quick if you don't have something else that's generating income for you.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, I think that's a great way to look at it. How much on average, if you had to average across all the 250-some odd businesses that you're working with now, what is the average revenue generation for staff PT in a cash business? Did that go through?
Dr. Danny Matta: Sorry, man. I didn't hear what you said. It broke up a little bit.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: It was a genius question. I'll see if I can rephrase...
Dr. Danny Matta: No, I didn't hear it. [chuckle]
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Okay, what's the...
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, yeah I'd love to hear it. I'm super... I wanna hear it. [chuckle]
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: What's the average revenue generated by a staff PT in a cash-based business?
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, it depends on where you're at and really heavily what the average visit rate is, as well as if they're doing anything else. From what we've seen, the average is gonna be somewhere between $210 and $270,000 a year, depending on the provider. Most providers, it's interesting, the metrics that we are able to pull on some of this is kind of interesting. The average cash provider is gonna settle in somewhere around like 108 visits a month. And this is when you account for vacation and holidays and all of that. So those are gonna see about 108 visits a month. So if you're saying, let's say the average visit rate is, just to make our math easy, about 200 bucks a visit, then all of a sudden that puts us in the range of 240 or so annually in terms of volume revenue generated, somewhere in there. Obviously, it can be more or less depending on the clinician, but that's about the average that we'll see. And then from there, it's just a matter of looking at, okay, what's compensation, what's the structure, what's the overhead? And how are you gonna actually build that comp model out?
Dr. Danny Matta: But for most people, that's still gonna be less than... For instance, friends of mine that are running in network practices that are higher volume, they're gonna be somewhere in the range of in the low threes. So there's a big gap there that we can't really make up, that we have to make up with efficiency in other ways.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: And so give me some of those ways, how are you more efficient there?
Dr. Danny Matta: Well, I love the recurring side of it, because what's cool about that is I think a lot of people want the opportunity to work with people long-term, like they want to help them... At least the people that we work with, they want to help them with their health and wellness, they wanna be the quarterback of their health and wellness is kind of way we look at it. And in order to do that, you have to have a long-term relationship with people. The other thing that's cool about that it's not just the volume, it's predictability in their pay and in revenue, but it also comes down to the fact that they get, A, a slightly easier visit. Like If you're seeing somebody that you've seen for a year and you're working with them on accountability about some health thing that you're working with them on, it's not nearly as mentally draining as a new patient that has three different issues that you're trying to solve at one time. So I think from a burnout side, it's far easier to function these types of practices for much longer because you're not getting bombarded so much with complexity. The other thing is documentation is just minuscule in comparison. We don't have all these questionnaires we have to fill out for Medicare and all these other things, and I used to get this when... I worked in this clinic that I told you I went for this manual therapist, it was awesome.
Dr. Danny Matta: And it was like every other month, they're like, Dude, we're just gonna add this one little questionnaire, it's gonna take you two minutes. It's like, yeah, dude, two minutes for somebody that's tech savvy, I have primarily 75-year-old women and men that don't know how to use a laptop for God's sake, so this is gonna take me 20 minutes every time they come in. And so we just layer on stuff that took me away from what I really wanted to do, which was to help my people. So I think the quality of the actual job is a big one, and the other thing too, is that we don't need as big of a footprint, we don't have really super high marketing costs. When it comes to running it correctly, it can be really lean and efficient, you don't need as many new patients. You need about 10 new patients per provider in order for them to grow a really solid schedule if they're doing the right things in the back-end. So that's where I think we can make up a big difference, is we can have lower overhead. And also, we don't need as much new volume. We don't have to play that eat what you kill game as much, which is really far less stressful. Having not done that and then done it, it's just like I would never go back to just a churn and burn model, 'cause it's just so hard to predict.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, all those are great points, and those are great ways to kinda figure that out. You're also, you're shielding yourself against risk. No one's gonna come in like a Blue Cross and say, we're gonna pay you less for the same level of service, right? You're not gonna have that, you're not gonna have the credentialing fees, you're not gonna have the billing fees, billing is 3% to 6% off the top immediately. So there are a lot of really easy ways to mitigate that difference, really all great pearls. Okay, tell me where Danny Matta and PT Biz is in 10 years. What do we have to look forward to?
Dr. Danny Matta: Man, in 10 years, I hope I'm doing the exact same thing, and I'm not one to say that. I'm typically... I'm quick to move on to other things. It's a real blessing and curse. I grew up in a military family. We moved every two years. I went to 11 schools before I graduated from high school, and that kind of sucks. But what it does is it makes you get used to transition. So every couple of years, I have this weird sense that I need to change something. And business is a great way to do that, but a terrible thing to do long-term for that business. So for me, I really think that what we have an opportunity to do is to build a small army of these performance-based clinicians that have these businesses, they can hire other people like us, so we can really affect more people in a positive way from a health standpoint. It's not like... I think that the business element is great. I love business in general. I just find it fascinating. I find it a fascinating game. But when we look at what our people are doing. In the last 12 months, our group, cumulatively saw about 60,000 new people, and I know what these people are doing with those patients and the compounding effect, the dividends that that's gonna pay for that person and their family, just from a health standpoint, from being more active with them on vacations to seeing your dad work out, what does that do to that person's daughter and their perception of health and what's normal.
Dr. Danny Matta: And that's... For me, that's the impact that we are chasing, and we wanna work with as many businesses we can possibly do and still do it in a really great way. So 10 years from now, man, I don't know, I'll take as many as we can do as many, as we can help and keep our quality and our standards really high, 'cause I wanna help hundreds of thousands of people on an annual basis, see the right people and then learn this information that they can apply. And it's not just like we talk about generational wealth is this great thing, but I think the concept of generational health is something that is lost on our current population, especially when if it's like 42% of the population is obese. Like 42% of the population is walking around obese. We can help with that, and we're the gateway for a lot of people that is less intimidating than a personal trainer, than a gym, 'cause they're coming in 'cause their knee hurts. Well, guess what, we're gonna get your knee feeling better, but dude, this is just the tip of the iceberg. What about X, Y, and Z? And now we get a chance to change your life.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, that's awesome and powerful, and you're doing awesome stuff with that model. You're exactly right, PT should be the quarterback of the healthcare. PTs should be your first stop when something else you put also with routine check-ins, like let's actually make that vision 2020, which they tortured me with when I was in graduate school, that they said in 2020, PTs are gonna be the primary care physician. Well, now, we're actually starting to see that happen. It's 'cause...
Dr. Danny Matta: Remember that.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: It's 'cause of dudes like you. So yes, I appreciate your service, but I also appreciate the service you're providing now professionally, because it is totally changing the way we the clinician look at the profession and also the way our patients look at the profession. So good on yo, u Danny. It's really awesome. Tell this audience of sports PTs, how they can find you and best ways to get in touch.
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, the easiest place to find me personally is just probably on Instagram, just Danny Matta PT, is the account. Physical Therapy Biz is... Physicaltherapybiz.com is a great place if you wanna learn more about what we're doing there. And then if you're a podcast listener and you're interested in the business side of things, I've done a podcast twice a week for five years on business. We're rolling into the mid-600s in terms of episodes released on the PT Entrepreneur Podcast. I don't see myself stopping any time soon. So if you wanna go catch up on all the things that we're learning and sharing and people that we get a chance to talk to that are sharing some really cool relevant business things, go check that out.
Dr. Danny Matta: So PT Entrepreneur Podcast and you can learn more about it there. And I just wanna go back to what you were saying real quick about the quarterback side of things. It doesn't have to be a cash practice for our profession to get some basic understanding of how to talk to people about sleep movement, nutrition and stress management. If you think about how much FaceTime we get with people versus a primary care doctor, it is significantly more, and especially if you find yourself in a lower volume clinic like yourself, Yoni, that is... What a great opportunity we have to start to just drop some of this information on people to help them with some of these things. So I don't wanna make this seem like it's exclusive, just to cash practices, that just happens to be primarily who we work with, 'cause they have a lot of interest in that intentionally, but it could be anybody.
Dr. Danny Matta: And I hope that bigger practices start picking that up, I hope they start teaching this in school, because it's such low-hanging fruit, and people wanna be healthier. They don't know what to do, and there's so much damn conflicting information out there that it's confusing and they just fall back on whatever they've been doing. So anyway, I just wanna make sure that people realize that's a huge goal for me, and I don't care if it's cash practice owners, in-network practice owners or whatever, somebody needs to start picking that shit up because it's a huge problem.
Dr. Yoni Rosenblatt: Yeah, it is a huge problem. And me living in the in-network world, I've done a deep dive on your podcast, and I've learned a tremendous amount business-wise. They're just awesome pearls in there. Your approach, just how affable you are and easy. Kelly wouldn't steer me wrong. So I encourage everyone to go check out PT Biz Entrepreneurship Podcast. It's gold. It's really great stuff. So Danny, thank you for your time. As always, you know we'll be in regular touch. Welcome to the True Sports family. I really appreciate your time here, man.
Dr. Danny Matta: Yeah, thank you so much. It was a great conversation.
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